BURL in Evolution

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BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
Dear Evolution developers,

Does Evolution supports the IMAP BURL extension, that saves an email
remotely, then sends it?

> This specification defines an extension to the standard Message
> Submission [RFC4409] protocol to permit data to be fetched from an
> IMAP server at message submission time.  This MAY be used in
> conjunction with the CHUNKING [RFC3030] mechanism so that chunks of
> the message can come from an external IMAP server.  This provides the
> ability to forward an email message without first downloading it to
> the client.

Thanks,
André Rodier

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Mon, 2020-06-01 at 20:43 +0100, André Rodier via evolution-list
wrote:
> Does Evolution supports the IMAP BURL extension, that saves an email
> remotely, then sends it?

        Hi,
no, it does not support it.

By the way, what is the RFC for it? Just curious.
        Bye,
        Milan

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Adam Tauno Williams
On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 07:06 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Mon, 2020-06-01 at 20:43 +0100, André Rodier via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Does Evolution supports the IMAP BURL extension, that saves an
> > email
> > remotely, then sends it?
> no, it does not support it.
> By the way, what is the RFC for it? Just curious.

It is more a feature of SMTP servers than clients --- although clients
would need to be aware of it.  I believe it comes out of the Lemonade
work.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4468
"""The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
   provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
   message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
   profile by adding a new BURL command that can be used to fetch
   submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
   server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
   server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
   client and uploading it back to the server."""

I, personally, cannot imagine what the User Interface for such a
feature would be in a 'normal' MUA.

Most tedious to me seems the issue that the SMTP server would need
access to the IMAP message store --- which seems like a nightware from
a sys-admin perspective.

--
Adam Tauno Williams, [hidden email]
Multi-Modal Activists Against Auto Dependent Development
resisting the unAmerican socialists of the Motorist hegemony
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Re: BURL in Evolution

Zan Lynx
On 6/2/2020 9:19 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4468
> """The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
>     provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
>     message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
>     profile by adding a new BURL command that can be used to fetch
>     submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
>     server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
>     server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
>     client and uploading it back to the server."""
>
> I, personally, cannot imagine what the User Interface for such a
> feature would be in a 'normal' MUA.

It would look just like the current Evolution or Thunderbird interface.
The client would write the outgoing message into the Sent folder on the
IMAP server. Then the SMTP command uses that message reference instead
of writing the message contents out again.

Or it could be used for message forwarding. Instead of downloading the
entire email plus attachments then uploading again, it could be
forwarded by the client by reference to the original IMAP location.

--
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                         Study Hard -- Be Evil
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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 10:40 -0600, Zan Lynx wrote:

> On 6/2/2020 9:19 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4468
> > """The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
> >     provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
> >     message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
> >     profile by adding a new BURL command that can be used to fetch
> >     submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
> >     server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
> >     server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
> >     client and uploading it back to the server."""
> >
> > I, personally, cannot imagine what the User Interface for such a
> > feature would be in a 'normal' MUA.
>
> It would look just like the current Evolution or Thunderbird interface.
> The client would write the outgoing message into the Sent folder on the
> IMAP server. Then the SMTP command uses that message reference instead
> of writing the message contents out again.
>
> Or it could be used for message forwarding. Instead of downloading the
> entire email plus attachments then uploading again, it could be
> forwarded by the client by reference to the original IMAP location.

I'm with Adam on this. This is one of those things that looks like a
great idea until you realise that it completely breaks the separation
of function between SMTP and IMAP, with who knows what unnoticed
complications down the line, including security. By way of
illustration: there is a primitive for posting a message in another
user's mailbox (as long as it's on the same server) which bypasses SMTP
entirely, and Evolution used to support it at one point, but it no
longer seems to exist (IIRC it was called "Post"). That would indicate
that these things are less useful than they appear.

poc

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Ángel González
On 2020-06-02 at 22:14 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> > > I, personally, cannot imagine what the User Interface for such a
> > > feature would be in a 'normal' MUA.
> >
> > It would look just like the current Evolution or Thunderbird
> interface.
> > The client would write the outgoing message into the Sent folder on
> the
> > IMAP server. Then the SMTP command uses that message reference
> instead
> > of writing the message contents out again.
> >
> > Or it could be used for message forwarding. Instead of downloading
> the
> > entire email plus attachments then uploading again, it could be
> > forwarded by the client by reference to the original IMAP location.
>
> I'm with Adam on this. This is one of those things that looks like a
> great idea until you realise that it completely breaks the separation
> of function between SMTP and IMAP, with who knows what unnoticed
> complications down the line, including security.


I understand the use case, but I think they put it in the wrong
protocol. It should have been placed in the IMAP protocol. You have the
benefit of referencing mails, but no intermixing of SMTP and IMAP, or
authentication complexities.
In fact, some IMAP servers already support IMAP sending through a "magic
Outbox folder".

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan
On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 22:14 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Evolution used to support it at one point, but it no
> longer seems to exist (IIRC it was called "Post").

        Hi,
just a note about the above, not related to the actual thread:

It's still there, though it's (mainly) used for NNTP accounts. I do not
know whether (and how) it could be enabled for IMAP (or other
protocols).

        Bye,
        Milan

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 08:18 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:

> On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 22:14 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Evolution used to support it at one point, but it no
> > longer seems to exist (IIRC it was called "Post").
>
> Hi,
> just a note about the above, not related to the actual thread:
>
> It's still there, though it's (mainly) used for NNTP accounts. I do not
> know whether (and how) it could be enabled for IMAP (or other
> protocols).

We may be talking about different things. I am 100% sure there used to
be a way to place a message in an IMAP folder because it's something I
occasionally did years ago. It's also documented in the Cyrus IMAP
server from Carnegie-Mellon (which we used at my university at the
time) so it may be specific to that implementation. Nothing to do with
NNTP.

poc

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 10:01 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> We may be talking about different things.

        Hi,
I see. I know the NNTP uses the Post-To, which might just be a
coincidence in naming. The composer itself still knows about the
Post-To option, the same as the sending part appends a message to the
given folder(s) (passed over in an evolution-specific header), but how
to make it shown in the composer I do not know, other than with NNTP.
        Bye,
        Milan

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 11:44 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 10:01 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > We may be talking about different things.
>
> Hi,
> I see. I know the NNTP uses the Post-To, which might just be a
> coincidence in naming. The composer itself still knows about the
> Post-To option, the same as the sending part appends a message to the
> given folder(s) (passed over in an evolution-specific header), but how
> to make it shown in the composer I do not know, other than with NNTP.

I can't be sure it was called Post. That was just my attempt to
remember it. I think it used to be under the File menu but it's
certainly not there now, though of course I'm no longer using the Cyrus
IMAP server so who knows.

poc

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Ángel González
> I understand the use case, but I think they put it in the wrong
> protocol. It should have been placed in the IMAP protocol. You have
> the benefit of referencing mails, but no intermixing of SMTP and
> IMAP, or authentication complexities.

It sort of is in IMAP;  on the backend the IMAP server must support
URLAUTH [RFC4467] on top of IMAP URLS [RFC2192].

It gets thorny at: """Specifically, thisrequires that the submit server
implement a configuration that uses STARTTLS followed by SASL PLAIN
[SASL-PLAIN] to authenticate to the IMAP server. .... Specifically,
this requires that the submit server implement a configuration that
uses STARTTLS followed by SASL PLAIN [SASL-PLAIN] to authenticate to
the IMAP server."""

Overall I was excited when I discovered IMAP URLS - HOW HANDY! - but
even then the authentication bit becomes such a pain that throwing some
kind of HTTP proxy in front of the IMAP server is still easier. :(

> In fact, some IMAP servers already support IMAP sending through a
> "magic Outbox folder".

Agree; there does seem to be a simpler way that doesn't require the
boundary ripping.
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Re: BURL in Evolution

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 08:18 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 22:14 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Evolution used to support it at one point, but it no
> > longer seems to exist (IIRC it was called "Post").
> just a note about the above, not related to the actual thread:
> It's still there, though it's (mainly) used for NNTP accounts. I do
> not know whether (and how) it could be enabled for IMAP (or other
> protocols).

How does "Save As Draft" save a message to an IMAP Drafts folder?

--
Adam Tauno Williams <mailto:[hidden email]> GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA
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Re: BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 08:34 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> How does "Save As Draft" save a message to an IMAP Drafts folder?

        Hi,
directly, by appending the message to the folder. It would be the same as
the 'Post' to the folder when sending (I checked that in the code).

Just note this is the expected append, the save to draft doesn't
involve the same code as send of the message; I mean, the code path is
very different, even the outcome is similar (send also modifies the
message content, by removing unnecessary evolution-specific data from
it).
        Bye,
        Milan


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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 15:39 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:

> On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 08:34 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > How does "Save As Draft" save a message to an IMAP Drafts folder?
>
> Hi,
> directly, by appending the message to the folder. It would be the same as
> the 'Post' to the folder when sending (I checked that in the code).
>
> Just note this is the expected append, the save to draft doesn't
> involve the same code as send of the message; I mean, the code path is
> very different, even the outcome is similar (send also modifies the
> message content, by removing unnecessary evolution-specific data from
> it).

That makes sense. Is there any reason the "post to folder" command was
removed from Evo? I remember I used to use it as a way of keeping notes
in my mailbox.

poc

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 16:58 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> That makes sense. Is there any reason the "post to folder" command
> was removed from Evo? I remember I used to use it as a way of keeping
> notes in my mailbox.

        Hi,
I've a very old Evolution (2.32.3, which starts lightning fast (I guess
also because it doesn't load WebKit and possibly other larger
dependencies with its own dependencies)) and it doesn't let me choose
the Post To value in the composer when creating a new message with an
IMAP account selected as From.

Looking into the code, it seems it was always about NNTP accounts only.
When such had been selected, the Post To was offered, otherwise it was
not. The latest change in the code dates back to 2011/2012 [1], but
even before that it was about NNTP.
        Bye,
        Milan

[1] https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/commit/f78795f4dff8b225d7
    Search for "nntp" (quotes for clarity only) in that commit to see
    the places; the red lines are the previous code and green lines
    the new code.

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 08:36 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:

> On Wed, 2020-06-03 at 16:58 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > That makes sense. Is there any reason the "post to folder" command
> > was removed from Evo? I remember I used to use it as a way of keeping
> > notes in my mailbox.
>
> Hi,
> I've a very old Evolution (2.32.3, which starts lightning fast (I guess
> also because it doesn't load WebKit and possibly other larger
> dependencies with its own dependencies)) and it doesn't let me choose
> the Post To value in the composer when creating a new message with an
> IMAP account selected as From.
>
> Looking into the code, it seems it was always about NNTP accounts only.
> When such had been selected, the Post To was offered, otherwise it was
> not. The latest change in the code dates back to 2011/2012 [1], but
> even before that it was about NNTP.

Again, I don't know if the actual command was "Post", but I am certain
that what I used to do was in no way related to NNTP. I never used
Evolution with Usenet.

Also, my memory of this is quite vague but it may not have been part of
the message sending flow, but rather something related to Folder
operations. Sorry I can't be more specific.

It's not that important.

poc

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Re: BURL in Evolution

Adam Tauno Williams
On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 10:54 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Also, my memory of this is quite vague but it may not have been part
> of the message sending flow, but rather something related to Folder
> operations. Sorry I can't be more specific.
> It's not that important.

I've hacked around the not-a-feature in the past by save-as-draft and
then copying from the Draft folder to a shared folder.  It works.

Sadly, no many people even understand what a shared folder is these
days so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, everyone [except GMail, of course] supports
plussed (+) mail delivery to folders.

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resisting the unAmerican socialists of the Motorist hegemony
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Re: BURL in Evolution

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 07:36 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

> On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 10:54 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Also, my memory of this is quite vague but it may not have been part
> > of the message sending flow, but rather something related to Folder
> > operations. Sorry I can't be more specific.
> > It's not that important.
>
> I've hacked around the not-a-feature in the past by save-as-draft and
> then copying from the Draft folder to a shared folder.  It works.
>
> Sadly, no many people even understand what a shared folder is these
> days so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>
> Also, everyone [except GMail, of course] supports
> plussed (+) mail delivery to folders.

Gmail does support this (it's called subaddressing), however that's a
separate topic.

poc

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