Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

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Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

theapplepie@differentmail.com
Hello

Maybe some of you are interested to look at the discussion regarding
the topic "Evolution again as default email app/client" on Ubuntu, see
Ubuntu Community Hub:
https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/

One user also posted some personal suggestions for improvements of Evolution:
https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/71

I also hope Evolution will be again the default email app in future releases of Ubuntu.

Cheers

Dan



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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
Hi,

On Tue, 2020-12-15 at 15:29 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> One user also posted some personal suggestions for improvements of
> Evolution:
>
> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/71

Anyone is welcome to file feature requests and bug reports by following
https://wiki.gnome.org/Community/GettingInTouch/BugReportingGuidelines

(People are also very free to leave their suggestions for some piece of
software on a blackboard in the supermarket or pin them on a tree in
the park, but that usually makes it less likely that their suggestions
will be seen by people who actually work on that piece of software. :)

Thanks!,
andre
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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

theapplepie@differentmail.com
> Anyone is welcome to file feature requests and bug reports by
> following
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Community/GettingInTouch/BugReportingGuidelines

I agree with you and it was suggested to the user in a later post:
https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/82

> (People are also very free to leave their suggestions for some piece
> of
> software on a blackboard in the supermarket or pin them on a tree in
> the park, but that usually makes it less likely that their
> suggestions
> will be seen by people who actually work on that piece of software.
> :)

You never know :)

Dan

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

Pete Biggs
On Tue, 2020-12-15 at 19:32 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> > Anyone is welcome to file feature requests and bug reports by
> > following
> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Community/GettingInTouch/BugReportingGuidelines
>
> I agree with you and it was suggested to the user in a later post:
> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/82
>

Out of interest (and it's not meant in a derogatory way), but do people
really think that posting things in an OS specific forum, like Ubuntu
Discourse or Ask Fedora, magically gets back to developers or will
elicit answers from communities such as this?

P.

>

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

Adam Tauno Williams
On Tue, 2020-12-15 at 21:21 +0000, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Tue, 2020-12-15 at 19:32 +0100,
> [hidden email]
>  wrote:
> > > Anyone is welcome to file feature requests and bug reports by
> > > following
https://wiki.gnome.org/Community/GettingInTouch/BugReportingGuidelines
> > I agree with you and it was suggested to the user in a later post:
> > https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/evolution-again-as-default-email-app-client/15457/82
> Out of interest (and it's not meant in a derogatory way), but do
> people
> really think that posting things in an OS specific forum, like Ubuntu
> Discourse or Ask Fedora, magically gets back to developers or will
> elicit answers from communities such as this?

No, I suspect they are having a 'casual' conversation.  Who's to say
they are even interested in a response?  My kinda l-o-n-g experience
with this is that they probably are not.

Aside, most of the things listed [at least in the message I read]
mostly relate to accommodating strange workflows.

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Adam Tauno Williams <mailto:[hidden email]> GPG D95ED383
OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us/>

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Pete Biggs
On Tue, 2020-12-15 at 21:21 +0000, Pete Biggs wrote:

Out of interest (and it's not meant in a derogatory way), but do people
really think that posting things in an OS specific forum, like Ubuntu
Discourse or Ask Fedora, magically gets back to developers or will
elicit answers from communities such as this?


Yes, people think all computers are connected to the internet and there for everything
gets automatically routed to the right place ... email on steroids :-(

And yes, I've had clients tell me that ... 

Mike


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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

theapplepie@differentmail.com
In reply to this post by Adam Tauno Williams
> Out of interest (and it's not meant in a derogatory way), but do
> > people
> > really think that posting things in an OS specific forum, like
> Ubuntu
> > Discourse or Ask Fedora, magically gets back to developers or will
> > elicit answers from communities such as this?
>
> No, I suspect they are having a 'casual' conversation.  Who's to say
> they are even interested in a response?  My kinda l-o-n-g experience
> with this is that they probably are not.

I agree with Adam. As far as I can tell it is a conversation about the
pro and cons of Evolution & Thunderbird. The user stating the Evolution
issues uses Thunderbird and that is why he does not post it on a
Evolution specific site.

I mentioned the thread as there are other Ubuntu users on this list and
they might be interested in the discussion and want to comment. If not,
no problem ;).

Have a bright day

Dan

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu Community)

Pete Biggs
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 11:49 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> > Out of interest (and it's not meant in a derogatory way), but do
> > > people
> > > really think that posting things in an OS specific forum, like
> > Ubuntu
> > > Discourse or Ask Fedora, magically gets back to developers or
> > > will
> > > elicit answers from communities such as this?
> >
> > No, I suspect they are having a 'casual' conversation.  Who's to
> > say
> > they are even interested in a response?  My kinda l-o-n-g
> > experience
> > with this is that they probably are not.
>
> I agree with Adam. As far as I can tell it is a conversation about the
> pro and cons of Evolution & Thunderbird. The user stating the Evolution
> issues uses Thunderbird and that is why he does not post it on a
> Evolution specific site.
>
> I mentioned the thread as there are other Ubuntu users on this list and
> they might be interested in the discussion and want to comment. If not,
> no problem ;).
>
I understand in this particular case. But in general, like the vertical
view issue I helped with yesterday, the issue was posted in an Ubuntu
forum a year ago and it feels like because there was no answer, it must
be a problem with Evolution, yet it was solved here immediately.

But as I said, it was just idle curiosity.

P.


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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

theapplepie@differentmail.com
> I understand in this particular case. But in general, like the
> vertical
> view issue I helped with yesterday, the issue was posted in an Ubuntu
> forum a year ago and it feels like because there was no answer, it
> must
> be a problem with Evolution, yet it was solved here immediately.

I think you raise a good point. Probably some don't know how to find
the specific help and some are not sure what could be the problem &
therefore ask in a general forum of their OS.

Another issue could be that the evolution list does not show up in the
top 30 of the search results. I searched for "Evolution vertical view"
in Startpage and DuckDuckGo and the most helpful link would not be
shown in the first 30 results (and probably more):
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2020-December/msg00048.html

But others like were shown:
https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/mail-vertical-view.html.en
https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/as8g77/evolution_mail_two_rows_in_vertical_view/
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1197409/evolution-vertical-view

The Help GNOME article is helpful but has not solved the problem and to
get from there to the Evolution mailing list is too long or that
obvious for most people, especially newbies.

Is there a way to bring the Evolution mailing into the search results?
Even when it is not clicked on much as it is a mailing list ...
I hope even newbies will be able to find this great and helpful mailing
list.

Cheers

Dan

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Pete Biggs
>
> I think you raise a good point. Probably some don't know how to find
> the specific help and some are not sure what could be the problem &
> therefore ask in a general forum of their OS.
>
> Another issue could be that the evolution list does not show up in the
> top 30 of the search results. I searched for "Evolution vertical view"
> in Startpage and DuckDuckGo and the most helpful link would not be
> shown in the first 30 results (and probably more):
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2020-December/msg00048.html
>
> But others like were shown:
> https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/mail-vertical-view.html.en
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/as8g77/evolution_mail_two_rows_in_vertical_view/
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1197409/evolution-vertical-view
>
> The Help GNOME article is helpful but has not solved the problem and to
> get from there to the Evolution mailing list is too long or that
> obvious for most people, especially newbies.

The main reason nothing appears in a search is because no one has asked
(or answered) anything about vertical view on this list for many years.
But yes, the mailing list results are not very prominent.

>
> Is there a way to bring the Evolution mailing into the search results?
> Even when it is not clicked on much as it is a mailing list ...
> I hope even newbies will be able to find this great and helpful mailing
> list.
>
It really depends on how the pages are ranked by individual search
engines. I only really know Google, but you need a web page to make a
reference to the mailing list archive before the search engine will go
there; page ranking depends on how many places have links to it.
(Forgive me if you already know this)

An admin/owner of pages can tell Google to index their pages, but I'm
not convinced it makes much difference in rankings. Certainly no one
here has sufficient access to the archive website to do such a thing.

However, all the pages about Evolution on the Gnome wiki have links to
the mailing list; the internal Help within Evolution has links to the
mailing list. Yet still people ask questions on other forums.

P.


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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
In reply to this post by theapplepie@differentmail.com
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 14:15 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> I think you raise a good point. Probably some don't know how to find
> the specific help and some are not sure what could be the problem &
> therefore ask in a general forum of their OS.

If people try "to find the specific help" but they do not click a menu
item in that application which is surprisingly called "Help", then I
don't know what else we should do. We cannot force people to read.

> Another issue could be that the evolution list does not show up in
> the
> top 30 of the search results. I searched for "Evolution vertical
> view"
> in Startpage and DuckDuckGo and the most helpful link would not be
> shown in the first 30 results (and probably more):
[...]

> Is there a way to bring the Evolution mailing into the search
> results?

We cannot fix the order in which things are shown on random third-party
websites, plus I see no point at all in linking to some mailing list,
because most people don't understand where to bring up what and the
difference between support vs feature request/bug report.

So I just opened google.com, not logged in, in Firefox 83 (but I might
have some cookies there) and in latest Tor browser (ending up with a
Dutch relay, so I switched the language to English). In both cases the
very first link goes to the GNOME Evolution help. See attachments.

Again: If people don't find or click that very first link in the search
results, then I don't know what else to do. Can't force people to read.

Cheers,
andre
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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by theapplepie@differentmail.com
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 14:15 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> The Help GNOME article is helpful but has not solved the problem and
> toget from there to the Evolution mailing list is too long or that
> obvious for most people, especially newbies.
> Is there a way to bring the Evolution mailing into the search
> results?

Evolution -> Help -> Contents -> Tracking down Problems: "How to get
help"

I do not mean to be dismissive, but I've been in IT for 30 years.
You|We|Us can't make it any easier than that.   The habit of starting
at a search engine is a terrible one; those users will waste their time
plunging rabbit holes. :(

RTFM is in the long run, truly, the best and kindest thing you can say
to a user.

> Even when it is not clicked on much as it is a mailing list ...
> I hope even newbies will be able to find this great and helpful
> mailing list.
--
Adam Tauno Williams <mailto:[hidden email]> GPG D95ED383
OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us/>

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Pete Biggs
>Startpage and DuckDuckGo

Scroogle and later Startpage were my default search engine for a very
long time, but due to bad search results nowadays, I tend to use Google
by default and only sometimes use another search engine. I test
DuckDuckGo from time to time, but I'm not satisfied by it. While in the
past Scroogle and Startpage provided hits as good as Google, it doesn't
work anymore.

Google is probably a bad company, but related to search results no other
search engine is fit to hold a candle.
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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 17:45 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:

> > Startpage and DuckDuckGo
>
> Scroogle and later Startpage were my default search engine for a very
> long time, but due to bad search results nowadays, I tend to use
> Google
> by default and only sometimes use another search engine. I test
> DuckDuckGo from time to time, but I'm not satisfied by it. While in
> the
> past Scroogle and Startpage provided hits as good as Google, it
> doesn't
> work anymore.
>
> Google is probably a bad company, but related to search results no
> other
> search engine is fit to hold a candle.

And that's entirely off-topic here and has nothing to do with
Evolution. Please stay on-topic in your postings.

andre
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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 17:48 +0100, Andre Klapper wrote:

> On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 17:45 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > Startpage and DuckDuckGo
> >
> > Scroogle and later Startpage were my default search engine for a very
> > long time, but due to bad search results nowadays, I tend to use
> > Google
> > by default and only sometimes use another search engine. I test
> > DuckDuckGo from time to time, but I'm not satisfied by it. While in
> > the
> > past Scroogle and Startpage provided hits as good as Google, it
> > doesn't
> > work anymore.
> >
> > Google is probably a bad company, but related to search results no
> > other
> > search engine is fit to hold a candle.
>
> And that's entirely off-topic here and has nothing to do with
> Evolution. Please stay on-topic in your postings.

Let me rephrase that. Users not necessarily expect to get the wanted
help, by the help option of an app. Some apps provide a good help
option, while reading the help of other apps is wasting time. So in
reality, a lot of users use a search engine in the first place and they
even would do this, if all apps would provide excellent help options ...
generation smartphone ;). I don't know if it's the majority or still a
minority, but definitively a huge group of users does prefer a search
engine in the first place over any "classic" manual. Without doubts most
of them are using Google. Get in contact with the ominous "averaged
user". While there is no such user, all of us are aware, that some
habits are very common. IOW if somebody does follow this common habits,
then using Google IMO is more promising, then using another search
engine.

However, my apologies, if I misunderstood the subject "Evolution
discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results" even after rereading the thread.

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

theapplepie@differentmail.com
In reply to this post by Adam Tauno Williams
I am happy to see the lively conversation. And sorry if I touched a
sensitive topic and triggered some not so empathetic answers . Yes, the
Contents link from Evolution Help is great and exemplary. I agree with
Ralf that a lot of other apps don't provide this helpful support.
With my questions I just tried to think how to make it easier for non-
IT guys and the people Ralf mentioned to find help. Personally I don't
have a problem to find the help I need (otherwise I would not be
subscribed to the list ;) ) and I have used Evolution for more than a
decade.
I am still a happy user and still try to promote it as I like it. That
is why I am trying to find out why the question regarding the mentioned
problem did not find its way to this mailing list but was rather
sitting idle in a general forum for a year.
For IT professional there a lot of things that seem to be logic but
different professionals don't have the same knowledge and have
different approaches & ways to find help because they might be ignorant
or had different experiences (like Ralf mentioned). And I understand it
is sometimes difficult to be patient when you get the same query over
and over again and you have a great Help page. I was just wondering
about the search results and the missing result about the Evolution
mailing list. But you pointed out the difficulty about that and I agree
with what was written regarding that (Pete & André). Therefore I hope
more people will just simply find the most logic and helpful way:
Evolution -> Help -> Contents -> Tracking down Problems: "How to get
hel
p"

Cheers, Dan


-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Tauno Williams <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Evolution] Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:00:36 -0500
Mailer: Evolution 3.34.4

On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 14:15 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> The Help GNOME article is helpful but has not solved the problem and
> toget from there to the Evolution mailing list is too long or that
> obvious for most people, especially newbies.
> Is there a way to bring the Evolution mailing into the search
> results?

Evolution -> Help -> Contents -> Tracking down Problems: "How to get
help"

I do not mean to be dismissive, but I've been in IT for 30 years.
You|We|Us can't make it any easier than that.   The habit of starting
at a search engine is a terrible one; those users will waste their time
plunging rabbit holes. :(

RTFM is in the long run, truly, the best and kindest thing you can say
to a user.

> Even when it is not clicked on much as it is a mailing list ...
> I hope even newbies will be able to find this great and helpful
> mailing list.

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Re: Evolution discussion (Ubuntu) - Search results

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-12-16 at 21:55 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> That
> is why I am trying to find out why the question regarding the mentioned
> problem did not find its way to this mailing list but was rather
> sitting idle in a general forum for a year.

Because random folks love to post their random stuff in random places.
It's the interwebs: I'm happy to put and share my opinion anywhere! :)

(It's not necessarily a bad thing: I'm not unhappy if some folks first
post their stuff in the forum of their Linux distro instead of posting
their [potentially clueless] stuff in upstream places. Especially if
their distro may like to brand itself as so user-friendly that it'll
likely also provide really great support to its users in its forums.)


Cheers,
andre
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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