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Full history in reply

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
Hi,

when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request?

Thanks for your answer.

Jiri
Evolution 3.36.3 (Arch Linux)


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Re: Full history in reply

Andre Klapper
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
> when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last
> email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our
> conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to
> make feature request?

When replying to a single message, why would you expect other messages
from that thread to be included? It's up to both you and the recipients
which parts of previous older messages are quoted in a newer message.
If you need to forward older messages in a thread, use "Forward".

For rendering all messages in a thread one after another (without any
"replying") see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/401

Cheers,
andre
--
Andre Klapper  |  [hidden email]
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: Full history in reply

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
> Hi,
>
> when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request?

There is no email client I am aware of that supports this.

Too many people are in the habit of quoting the entire message when
they reply, and if everyone does this then the result is a complete
trace of the conversation, but that is a consequence of a) Microsoft's
brain-dead decision to promote top-posting in Outlook, contrary to all
previous practice, which was then slavishly followed by other software
including Gmail, and b) users being either too lazy or too incompetent
to trim the material they quote.

This practice is not welcome on mailing lists, which already have the
entire thread archived anyway, so we try to encourage people not to
top-post and to trim their quotes to the relevant part of the message
(very easy to do in Evolution).

poc

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Re: Full history in reply

Pete Biggs
In reply to this post by Gnome Evolution - General mailing list

> when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last
> email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our
> conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to
> make feature request?
>
I think you may be confusing people with your terminology.  When you
say 'thread' the usual interpretation of that is every single message
related to the message you are replying to - not the contents of the
one email, but every single relate email message.  This is not
something that any mail program does and I hope is never ever
implemented.

If you mean the whole contents of the single email and all the quoted
bits and the long list of irrelevant messages that no one can be
bothered to trim, then yes, Evolution does quote all those as well by
default.

What you are probably seeing is the *proper* use of signature
separators.  Evolution, like most other properly behaving MUAs, does
not quote anything below the signature separator: why do you *need* to
quote someone else's signature in your reply?  The signature separator
is '-- ' on a line of its own.  However if some program decides to put
the signature, with signature separator, above the rest of the in-line
quoted material, then Evolution will not include the quoted material.

As far as I know there is no way to turn off this behaviour in the user
interface, but I've never really looked very hard.

P.


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Re: Full history in reply

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 11:21 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> As far as I know there is no way to turn off this behaviour in the
> user interface, but I've never really looked very hard.

        Hi,
that's correct, there is nothing in the Preferences of Evolution to
change the behaviour. There's a GSettings (hidden) option though:

   $ gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.mail composer-reply-keep-signature true

which can be used.
        Bye,
        Milan

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Re: Full history in reply

Ian-3
In reply to this post by Andre Klapper
By convention I would expect that all of the messages are included in the reply. Most mail clients do this, why not evolution

Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Klapper <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:57:36 +0200

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last
email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our
conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to
make feature request?

When replying to a single message, why would you expect other messages
from that thread to be included? It's up to both you and the recipients
which parts of previous older messages are quoted in a newer message.
If you need to forward older messages in a thread, use "Forward".

For rendering all messages in a thread one after another (without any
"replying") see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/401

Cheers,
andre
--
Andre Klapper  |  [hidden email]
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: Full history in reply

Pete Biggs
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote:
> By convention I would expect that all of the messages are included in
> the reply. Most mail clients do this, why not evolution
>
> Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe.

I really think you have got terminology mixed up here.

When you reply in evolution it will include the message you are
replying to - either quoted as I have done here, or inline as you have
done (aka "Outlook style") depending on your preferences.  I would
normally remove the irrelevant parts of the message I'm replying to,
but I've left them in here to illustrate the point.

That message you are replying to may, or may not, have, as part of the
text, a copy of the messages that each person replied to that *they*
have included.  It is still *ONE* message (but with lots of other bits
of text included) - as more and more people reply, each message gets
bigger and bigger.  

What no client ever does is to include all the other mail messages in a
thread.  That would mean in this thread it would join together six
messages even though they are not part of the message I'm replying to -
I have threads of hundreds of messages and I really don't want all
those messages being added every time I reply to the thread.

You see some of us are of the opinion that there is no need to include
the whole of an email underneath what your reply.  The sensible thing
is to intersperse your replies in the relevant parts of the email you
are quoting (note "quoting", not "including") so that there is a
conversation - you can have multiple levels of quoting so it is clear
which message/person you are replying to; and you trim the message so
that you don't include irrelevant parts.  There is no need for every
single message to have all the quoted/included messages because you
already have all the messages in your Inbox and they should be properly
threaded so that you can find the email history without scrolling
through thousands of lines of included text.

Some of us are also of the opinion that replying above a message is not
a logical thing to do - you put replies underneath questions, not above
and it's helpful to trim messages so you only include relevant bits. If
you just reply above the message you have to do linguistic gymnastics
to try and describe what you are talking about: "in paragraph 3 of the
third message below X said in reply to the 5th message from Y".  Just
quote the necessary bits, it's easier.

BTW, this including the whole email and just replying above it is
called "Top Posting".  It is frowned-on on many technical mailing lists
like this, as is posting in HTML.  Please don't do it.

P.


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andre Klapper <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:57:36 +0200
>
> On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
>
> when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last
> email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our
> conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to
> make feature request?
>
> When replying to a single message, why would you expect other messages
> from that thread to be included? It's up to both you and the recipients
> which parts of previous older messages are quoted in a newer message.
> If you need to forward older messages in a thread, use "Forward".
>
> For rendering all messages in a thread one after another (without any
> "replying") see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/401
>
> Cheers,
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper  |  [hidden email]
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> evolution-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Full history in reply

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Ian-3
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:25:10 +1000, Ian wrote:
>Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe.

Apart from Evolution the graphical user interface mailers doing this by
default are at least Claws-Mail and Sylpheed. IIRC Kmail does it also.
Most likely almost all, if not all BSD and Linux text-based user
interface mailers do.
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Re: Full history in reply

Gnome Evolution - General mailing list
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:17:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:25:10 +1000, Ian wrote:
>>Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe.  
>
>Apart from Evolution the graphical user interface mailers doing this by
>default are at least Claws-Mail and Sylpheed. IIRC Kmail does it also.
>Most likely almost all, if not all BSD and Linux text-based user
>interface mailers do.

Correction: I was referring to the cursor position below the quoted
message/s.

Actually I've never heard of any mailer including the text of a
complete thread when replying. Could you name some? Mailers just include
the text of the mail you are replying to, some with, other without
signature. Evolution includes the original message, too.
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Re: Full history in reply

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Ian-3
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote:
> By convention I would expect that all of the messages are included in
> the reply. Most mail clients do this, why not evolution
>
> Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe.

Every email client I know of, including Thunderbird, Claws, Elm, Mutt,
Kmail, Outlook and Gmail.

I think Pete has explained this fully so I won't elaborate further.

poc

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Re: Full history in reply

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Pete Biggs
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 01:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote:
>
> What no client ever does is to include all the other mail messages in a
> thread.  That would mean in this thread it would join together six
> messages even though they are not part of the message I'm replying to -
> I have threads of hundreds of messages and I really don't want all
> those messages being added every time I reply to the thread

To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold
standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including signatures,
by default, in every ___ ____ reply.  So it sort of does this as most
user's never both to delete anything.
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Re: Full history in reply

Zan Lynx
On 6/11/20 8:44 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold
> standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including signatures,
> by default, in every ___ ____ reply.  So it sort of does this as most
> user's never both to delete anything.

Outlook also makes it impossible to have a real signature. I tried
pretty hard, but I never managed to get Outlook to put "-- " as a
signature delimiter. It always wants to trim the trailing space. Not to
mention, getting it to do plain text is nearly impossible.

--
                 Knowledge is Power -- Power Corrupts
                         Study Hard -- Be Evil
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Re: Full history in reply

Adam Tauno Williams
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 08:54 -0600, Zan Lynx wrote:

> On 6/11/20 8:44 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold
> > standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including
> > signatures,
> > by default, in every ___ ____ reply.  So it sort of does this as
> > most
> > user's never both to delete anything.
> Outlook also makes it impossible to have a real signature. I tried
> pretty hard, but I never managed to get Outlook to put "-- " as a
> signature delimiter. It always wants to trim the trailing space. Not
> to mention, getting it to do plain text is nearly impossible.

Agree [my employer moved to Outlook ~3 years ago].  Outlook immensely
diminishes the usefulness of e-mail as a collaboration tool. I accept
that as the reason e-mail has so much fallen out of favor - Outlook
ruined it - and why we know have to live with a random collection of
silos in the form of web forums, chat thingys, etc...

Really, there is no reason to include an entire thread in an e-mail
message - - - you have the thread in your mailbox: assuming clients
"In-reply-to" correctly.  E-mail is a very robust and evolved
communications solutions - if people let it work. :(

--
Adam Tauno Williams, [hidden email]
Multi-Modal Activists Against Auto Dependent Development
resisting the unAmerican socialists of the Motorist hegemony
http://www.mmaaadd.org 
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Re: Full history in reply

Ian-3
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan
Hi All,

I think the suggestion was that "It was an option" I would also like this option. From a business perspective it ensures that the entire conversation can be seen in a single document. Yes it costs a little more in storage but storage is cheap.

Also other mail clients do exactly this. I suggest that you test with the more common email clients.

The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft, google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your views isn't really relevant.
Just as if you don't like a members of a particular race or sexual orientation whilst it might be relevant to you, it's not really relevant to including the history in a reply.

Keep on track, standards (rather than convention) based and try to be a bit inclusive.

Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place of work ;-)

####

Test 4

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:32, Ian wrote:
Test 3

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Test 1
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:29:50 +1000

Test 2

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:28, Ian  wrote:
test 1


####

Cheers
Ian


-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick O'Callaghan <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:50:42 +0100

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
Hi,

when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request?

There is no email client I am aware of that supports this.

Too many people are in the habit of quoting the entire message when
they reply, and if everyone does this then the result is a complete
trace of the conversation, but that is a consequence of a) Microsoft's
brain-dead decision to promote top-posting in Outlook, contrary to all
previous practice, which was then slavishly followed by other software
including Gmail, and b) users being either too lazy or too incompetent
to trim the material they quote.

This practice is not welcome on mailing lists, which already have the
entire thread archived anyway, so we try to encourage people not to
top-post and to trim their quotes to the relevant part of the message
(very easy to do in Evolution).

poc

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Re: Full history in reply

Pete Biggs

>
> I think the suggestion was that "It was an option" I would also like
> this option. From a business perspective it ensures that the entire
> conversation can be seen in a single document. Yes it costs a little
> more in storage but storage is cheap.
>
> Also other mail clients do exactly this. I suggest that you test with
> the more common email clients.

And you have almost completely missed the point of what everyone is
saying.  Evolution DOES include all the text of the email you are
responding to - that text may contain copies of the emails that other
people have responded to and they too will be included if, and this is
important, they are present in the text of the email.  This is how
every mail client behaves.

What Evolution doesn't do, nor does any other, is to include any text
that isn't part of the email you are replying to: it doesn't include
"messages" or emails or text or attachments that are not already part
of the email.

If someone edits the message they are replying to to remove irrelevant
parts, the text isn't restored by the client adding in the text from
other messages at the bottom that it miraculously finds in your Inbox.

>
> The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft,
> google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your
> views isn't really relevant.

Well, it is, because the Outlook style of replying makes it look like
the included messages are included as whole discrete messages - it
doesn't encourage people to trim their replies. This style of replying
was something that Outlook did when no other email client of the time
did; Microsoft also shoe-horned "rich text" emails into the previously
purely text based systems, and in doing so they realised it meant that
the conventional and standards based method of including emails that
you are replying to (i.e. text with '> ' quote markers) didn't work so
they had to create this system of adding the whole of the message to
the bottom of the email you are composing - originally the message was
included as an attachment, so uneditable, and was just displayed at the
bottom of the text to make it look like it was inline - but it only
worked in Outlook until other MUAs were forced to try and accommodate
what Microsoft had done to a previously perfectly acceptable system.

And now it's virtually impossible to get Outlook to reply in any way
other than what it thinks you should - when you reply it will even hide
the text that it is including, so I suppose that's why people think it
magically inserts the other messages - hint: it doesn't, they were
there all along.

<<removed some irrelevant provocative rubbish>>

>
> Keep on track, standards (rather than convention) based and try to be
> a bit inclusive.

If only people would be standards based - there are a lot of standards
that are studiously ignored by many MUAs in favour of what their
designers prefer and have now become conventions "in the work place".

>
> Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top
> the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place
> of work ;-)

Is this your place of work??

It is the CONVENTION on this list to not top post and not to use HTML,
kindly keep to the conventions if that is what is important to you.

>
> ####
>
> Test 4
>
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:32, Ian wrote:
> > Test 3
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > Subject: Re: Test 1
> > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:29:50 +1000
> >
> > Test 2
> >
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:28, Ian  wrote:
> > > test 1
>
>
> ####
>
And in what way does Evolution NOT do this??

Look VVV down there VVV - you can see that Evolution has done that when
you replied to Patrick's message - it included the message you were
replying to.

> Cheers
> Ian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick O'Callaghan <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:50:42 +0100
>
> On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +0000, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:
> Hi,
>

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Re: Full history in reply

aguador
El lun, 15-06-2020 a las 00:57 +0100, Pete Biggs escribió:

>
> > The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft,
> > google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your
> > views isn't really relevant.
>
> Well, it is, because the Outlook style of replying makes it look like
> the included messages are included as whole discrete messages - it
> doesn't encourage people to trim their replies. This style of
> replying
> was something that Outlook did when no other email client of the time
> did;

Actually to add my two cents as well, Pete is exactly right. I was an
early user of Outlook and so easily accepted the HTML default and the
top posting. I now have a friend who uses the HTML-top posting default
and, in replies to longer messages, winds up placing something like
"See ****" at the top and then inserting comments with these leading
characters in the HTML text. That works, but is much less efficient
than plain text with the ">" marking the previous material, allowing
you to find the comments easily.

Some years ago when a group I thought of joining wanted me to sign up
to use their Slack account, I had to investigate what it was and came
across a review that gushed about how much better Slack was than e-
mail. My immediate reaction was that the reviewer simply did not know
how to use e-mail.

Roy

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Re: Full history in reply

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Ian-3
On Mon, 2020-06-15 at 08:35 +1000, Ian wrote:
> Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top
> the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place of
> work ;-)

Your test confirms exactly what Pete and I (and others) have been
saying, and does *not* show what you claim it shows. I don't know how
it can be explained to you more clearly.

poc

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